17:13 <@Mancubus_II> wtf does that mean
17:13 <@xooz98> heh
17:13 < aurikan> Sarge: that's an unfulfillable requirement
17:13 < aurikan> period
17:13 < SargeBaldy> i mean multiplayer games aren't a consistent experience
17:13 < aurikan> there will ALWAYS be someone that you hate playing with
17:13 <@Mancubus_II> no and that's the point
17:14 <@xooz98> what if you played with someone who sprayed you with gasoline and lit matches every five seconds during the game
17:14 < aurikan> the guy who is either so damn good or so damn cheap or so damn annoying that it isn't any fun
17:14 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:14 <@Mancubus_II> and that's not the fault of the game
17:14 <@Mancubus_II> but the fault of the player
17:14 < SargeBaldy> but the game is about multiple players
17:14 < SargeBaldy> they are required by the game
17:15 -!- Hobo|school is now known as Hobo
17:15 <@Mancubus_II> but it is not the fault of the game if you don't have fun with the guy you're playing with
17:15 < aurikan> you're basically saying there is no such thing as a good multi-only game
17:15 < aurikan> that exception is a straw man
17:15 < SargeBaldy> there is no consistently fun multiplayer only game
17:15 < aurikan> we'll just accept there is some lamer that makes the game no fun
17:15 < aurikan> sargebaldy: i don't know about you but i can choose who i play with
17:16 < aurikan> and that makes it consistently fun
17:16 < SargeBaldy> ok
17:16 < SargeBaldy> then for you, it is good
17:16 < SargeBaldy> or fun at least
17:16 < aurikan> so a multi-only game can be good if you have at least some people that make it fun
17:17 < SargeBaldy> but to generally say it is 'good' and thus 'good' for everyone is impossible
17:17 <@Mancubus_II> no one said that
17:17 < aurikan> now you're saying that good is absolute
17:17 < aurikan> in that case i'm going to claim that not everyone like the sp of any game
17:17 < aurikan> thus no games are good
17:17 < SargeBaldy> i'm saying that you need consistency to use the term good
17:17 < aurikan> ok, given that
17:18 < aurikan> it is impossible for any game to be good
17:18 < SargeBaldy> and can't rely on external factors
17:18 < aurikan> under your definition, all games are bad
17:18 < SargeBaldy> how so
17:19 < SargeBaldy> well
17:19 <@Mancubus_II> plain and simple, good and bad are dependent on the view of the person saying it
17:19 < SargeBaldy> yes, i suppose so
17:19 < aurikan> well, you've already claimed that because of a lack of consistency, multi-only games are bad
17:19 < pritch> silence gay boys
17:19 < aurikan> i claim that for any game with single, someone hates the single.
17:19 < aurikan> thus all games are bad
17:19 < SargeBaldy> no, thus all games are not good
17:19 < SargeBaldy> there is a difference between not good and bad
17:19 <@Mancubus_II> ...
17:19 < aurikan> quibbling
17:20 <@xooz98> games without players are good
17:20 <@xooz98> right?
17:20 < aurikan> xooz: null set exception ;-)
17:20 < Cyb> your mom is a good game
17:20 < aurikan> is it a game if it has no players?
17:20 < Cyb> the end boss is hard tho
17:20 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:20 < pritch> your mom is a good ga.. bah
17:20 <@xooz98> what defines a game then
17:20 < SargeBaldy> if there's no players it's a simulation
17:20 < Cyb> haw
17:20 <@xooz98> simulations are good games?
17:20 < pritch> gaydoom! gaydoom!
17:20 < aurikan> i mean, if no games are "good"
17:20 < aurikan> then let's refactor the scale
17:20 < aurikan> let's say all not-bad games are good
17:21 < SargeBaldy> i don't have the attention span to remember my argument at this point
17:21 < aurikan> and bad games are still bad
17:21  * pritch rings dictionary bell
17:21 < aurikan> let me summarize
17:21 < aurikan> you've said in order to be good, a game must be perfect
17:21 < aurikan> no games are perfect ergo no games are good
17:21 < SargeBaldy> i'll rethink my logic later, i lost myself about 5 minutes ago
17:21 < aurikan> this implies the classification of "good" is meaningless
17:21 <@Mancubus_II> simple point, you can not absolutely define what is good or bad. It is simply "in the eye of the beholder"
17:22 <@xooz98> well, opinions by definition, are neither wrong nor right
17:22 <@xooz98> so good and bad are by definition meaningless
17:22 < SargeBaldy> i just meant
17:22 <@Mancubus_II> xooz: exactly
17:22 < aurikan> xooz: his definition of good and bad
17:22 < SargeBaldy> that a game should be good without the need for external variables to be considered good
17:22 < pritch> this is bad right here
17:22 <@Mancubus_II> well, you can define good or bad, but not what gets classified as such
17:23 < SargeBaldy> that is the only statement i wish to make
17:23 < Cyb> opinions are like assholes
17:23 < Cyb> everyone has one and they all stink
17:23 <@Mancubus_II> lololololo
17:23 < SargeBaldy> llozozlzll
17:23 < Cyb> my dad taught me that when I was six
17:23 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:23 <@xooz98> heh
17:23 < SargeBaldy> was your dad a philosopher
17:23 < aurikan> sarge: that statement merely implies that no multi-only games can be good
17:23 < pritch> opinions are like cyb
17:23 <@Mancubus_II> what else did he teach you about assholes at that age?
17:23 <@xooz98> the goatse man must have some really heavy opinions
17:23 < pritch> sometimes right, sometimes disgusting
17:23 < Cyb> that's like the only thing he ever taught me
17:23 < SargeBaldy> aur: not necessarily, there could be a sp component
17:24 < SargeBaldy> most mp games have bots
17:24 < liam> i argue that bots are shit.  by definitino
17:24 < aurikan> multi-only implies NO SP
17:24 < SargeBaldy> those are internal factors
17:24 < liam> definition
17:24  * pritch tickles cyb
17:24 < SargeBaldy> playing bots is single player
17:24  * Cyb farts
17:24 < aurikan> yes
17:25  * pritch passes out
17:25 < aurikan> multi-player only implies you can only play multi-player.  multi-player impies more than 1 player
17:25 < Cyb> yeah are there even any games where you can't play alone
17:25 < aurikan> counterstrike
17:25 < Cyb> that's more of a mod
17:25 < aurikan> it's a game
17:25 < Cyb> I suppose
17:25 < pritch> heh a whole new argument
17:25 < liam> cs is one of the best games ever, fuck mod
17:25 < Cyb> the next version has bots tho
17:25 < liam> cyb: they removed them
17:26 < Cyb> cz I mean
17:26 < liam> as of non-beta
17:26 < liam> oic
17:26 < liam> cz is probably too much for my shitcan pc.. well see though
17:26 < Cyb> it's the hl1 engine
17:26 < aurikan> there are many games where single isn't comparable to the multi component as well
17:26 < Cyb> how can you possibly have a pc that doesn't run hl1
17:26 < liam> it's the original hl engine?
17:27 < Cyb> yes
17:27 -!- Baron [deathwar@h24-68-187-165.du.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:27 < liam> didnt know that
17:27 < aurikan> you could honestly consider single halo and multi halo to be different games
17:27 < liam> ok
17:27 < Cyb> yeah
17:27 < liam> maybe i mean cs2 then
17:27 < Cyb> you can tell cz is hl1 engine becuase it's so damned ugly and outdated looking
17:27 < aurikan> rofl
17:27 < aurikan> touche
17:27 < Cyb> were cs not so damned popular it would flop massivly because of that heh
17:28 < aurikan> cs is a derivative of the damn q1 engine
17:28 < aurikan> q1 was 95
17:28 < Cyb> aye
17:28 < aurikan> so it's an 8 year old engine
17:28 < Cyb> to be fair the hl1 engine is 70% new stuff tho
17:28 < aurikan> by moore's law, we should have 4x the visual quality by now
17:28 < pritch> I wonder if they exported The Office to America would anyone find it funny
17:29 < Cyb> heh does moores law apply to games
17:29 < aurikan> to some extent
17:29 < Cyb> well I dunno look at q1 and compare it to some new cutting edge game
17:29 < Cyb> ut2k3 or something...
17:29 <@xooz98> heh
17:30 < SargeBaldy> i have yet to play that, even though i could just get it right off the network
17:30 <@xooz98> i think we've slowed down. wolf3d to q1 was what, 3 years?
17:30 < SargeBaldy> 4
17:31 < SargeBaldy> i think they've mostly just slowed down with design
17:31 < liam> oh no
17:33 < Cyb> eek oh gn0
17:34 < liam> nooooo
17:34 < aurikan> game development has become longer
17:34 < aurikan> mainly because there is more content in games now
17:35 < SargeBaldy> that's because they modify the engine more
17:35 < fredrik> and yet they're not getting better
17:35 < aurikan> fredrik: well, they are
17:35 < aurikan> but in a roundabout way
17:35 < SargeBaldy> heretic and doom are more similar engine-wise than hl and quake heh
17:35 < aurikan> gamers used to be satisfied with orthogonal walls and only partial texturing
17:36 < aurikan> they used to accept that they had to type sentences in the game from time to time
17:36 < fredrik> i don't think gameplay has evolved at all over the last several years
17:36 < fredrik> only the stuff around it
17:36 < SargeBaldy> me either
17:36 < aurikan> so you don't think GTA3 is fresh and new?
17:36 < SargeBaldy> i mean among FPSes
17:36 < fredrik> i do
17:36 < fredrik> but there are exceptions to everything
17:36 < fredrik> :)
17:36 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:37 < SargeBaldy> GTA3 was a good idea
17:37 < aurikan> what about the sims?
17:37 < SargeBaldy> that too
17:37 < aurikan> that is new
17:37 < SargeBaldy> although i hate it
17:37 < aurikan> same
17:37 < SargeBaldy> it is original
17:37 < aurikan> but its still a new idea that caught on something massive
17:37 < SargeBaldy> and thus i have respect for it
17:37 < Cyb> heh
17:37 < aurikan> sports games have evolved quite a bit in the last few years
17:38 < Cyb> aye
17:38 < SargeBaldy> yeah
17:38 <@xooz98> heh
17:38 < liam> rpgs get more and more open-ended too
17:38 < aurikan> what about "3rd-person perspective" fpses for the more artistically inclined players?
17:38 < SargeBaldy> heh, i think RPGs are getting worse
17:38 < SargeBaldy> and FPSs too
17:38 < SargeBaldy> but other things are improving
17:39 <@xooz98> i don't think fpses are getting worse, only getting old
17:39 < Cyb> there's not much you can di with the fps genra without blending it with another one tho
17:39 <@xooz98> there is only so much you can do
17:39 < SargeBaldy> well yeah
17:39 < Cyb> s/di/do
17:39 <@xooz98> hey, stealing my idea there
17:39 < aurikan> well there are lots of new things in fpses
17:39 < SargeBaldy> i mean there's not enough originality to make them good
17:39 <@xooz98> that's what i hope to see in doom3 - enough originality to make a fun fps
17:39 <@xooz98> and it probably won't happen
17:40 < SargeBaldy> heh, don't expect that in doom3
17:40 < aurikan> location damage is huge now
17:40 <@xooz98> hey, id owes me something good, i bought all the quakes
17:40 < SargeBaldy> for originality you'll have better luck with deus ex 2 or something
17:40 < Cyb> sucker
17:40 <@xooz98> i have deus ex 1 but never played it
17:40 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:40 < aurikan> you should, it's good
17:40 < SargeBaldy> yes
17:40 <@xooz98> one of my favorite fps type things (albeit not a 'straight' fps) is theif
17:40 <@xooz98> thief
17:40 < Cyb> even deus ex tho
17:40 < aurikan> i mean
17:40 < Cyb> you could consider that a first person rpg
17:40 < SargeBaldy> deus ex is one of my very favorite games
17:41 < aurikan> we've already generated so many exceptions to your blanket statement that "things haven't evolved"
17:41 <@xooz98> yeah, i should play deus ex
17:41 < SargeBaldy> i like to think of it a more well-designed FPS
17:41 < SargeBaldy> and not an RPG FPS
17:41 < liam> daikatana was evolutionary!
17:41 < liam> it had superfly johnson
17:41 < aurikan> no, dk sucked
17:41 < liam> breaking the race barrier
17:41 <@xooz98> heh
17:41 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:41 <@xooz98> breaking the suck barrier olollol.
17:41 < SargeBaldy> the race barrier
17:41 < SargeBaldy> actually daikatana ranges from absolutely horrid to pretty good
17:42 < SargeBaldy> it's the most inconsistent game ever made
17:42 <@xooz98> hehe, 'first blaxploitation character in a game'. race barrier indeed
17:42 < liam> let my people go
17:42 -!- Destroyer [~q2player@ool-44c1f799.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #zdoom
17:42 < SargeBaldy> episode 4 of daikatana is the worst thing i've ever played, aside from fan made crap
17:42 < SargeBaldy> but episode 3 was actually pretty sweet
17:43 < SargeBaldy> episode 2 was pretty cool except i think they forgot to compile it with lighting
17:43 < aurikan> so i ask
17:43 < aurikan> where is this lack of evolution
17:43 < SargeBaldy> where is the evidence of evolution
17:43 < SargeBaldy> design-wise
17:43 < aurikan> everywhere you look
17:44 < liam> the last 3 pages we typed
17:44 < Cyb> rofl
17:44 < aurikan> deathmatch game modes, for example
17:44 < aurikan> it used to be DM
17:44 < SargeBaldy> obviously engines are progressing quickly
17:44 < aurikan> then it was DM, TDM
17:44 < fredrik> so gameplay mechanics might have gotten more advanced
17:44 < aurikan> DM, TDM, CTF
17:44 < fredrik> but they haven't gotten better
17:44 < SargeBaldy> well
17:44 < aurikan> now there's a billion minor modes
17:44 < SargeBaldy> QTF is pretty old
17:44 < aurikan> king of the hill
17:44 < SargeBaldy> that's 7 years old
17:44 < SargeBaldy> that's hardly a new thing
17:44 < aurikan> one-flag ctf
17:44 < liam> assault
17:44 < aurikan> assault
17:44 < SargeBaldy> and companies didn't come up with it
17:44 < SargeBaldy> modders did
17:45 < liam> counter-strike and all the other little mods
17:45 < aurikan> that isn't a big distinction
17:45 < aurikan> just beacuse the evolution doesn't come from corporations
17:45 < aurikan> doesn't make it NOT evolution
17:45 < SargeBaldy> well i don't consider mods games
17:45 <@xooz98> heh, don't forget domination
17:45 < SargeBaldy> so i wouldn't say games are evolving
17:45 < Cyb> well uh ctf was a game you played outside before it was a game mode
17:45 <@xooz98> if you're going to mention assault
17:45 < SargeBaldy> although mods certainly are
17:45 < Cyb> so I'd hardly say they 'came up with it'
17:45 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:45 < aurikan> cyb: but it is evolving GAMEPLAY
17:45 < Cyb> yes
17:46 < aurikan> i rest my case
17:46 < SargeBaldy> i'll admit mods are evolving, just not games
17:46 < Cyb> I'm saying the concept of ctf wasn't invented by mod makers tho heh
17:46 < SargeBaldy> applying it to a game was
17:46 < aurikan> that's the most patently rediculous statement i've ever seen sarge
17:46 < SargeBaldy> that's like saying the FPS wasn't original because paintball was around first
17:46 < SargeBaldy> ridiculous
17:47 < aurikan> the only difference between modders and game developers is that game developers get paid
17:47 < SargeBaldy> and that mods aren't programmed
17:48 < Cyb> what I'm not saying it's not a good idea I'm just saying they didn't invent it
17:48 < aurikan> some games aren't programmed
17:48 < Cyb> they just said 'hey it'd be cool to play this in quake'
17:48 < aurikan> they're just a content pack on an engine
17:48 < SargeBaldy> often mods use resources from a game too
17:48 < aurikan> games often use resources from elsewhere
17:49 < aurikan> usually public domain, but sometimes licensed
17:49 < aurikan> the big difference is that since mods are generally free, they can't afford to license
17:49 < aurikan> but most of them are generally games in their own right
17:49 < Cyb> there's programming involved with mode
17:49 < Cyb> mods
17:49 < aurikan> usually, yes
17:50 < aurikan> and i'm not surprised that most of the evolution, which is inherently risky, comes from people who don't have their livelihood on the line when they push out a product
17:50 < SargeBaldy> well i only mean i don't find commercial FPSes improving in design
17:50 <@olochimaru> man i forgot how good jar of flies is
17:50 < aurikan> they do though
17:50 < liam> ok
17:50 < Cyb> heh
17:50 < aurikan> they rip ideas from mods
17:50 < liam> olo
17:50 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:51 < liam> i have ein album for j00
17:51 <@olochimaru> which?
17:51 < SargeBaldy> yeah, but i mean originally improving design
17:51 < liam> kevorkian death cycle
17:51 < SargeBaldy> and not just ripping off something older
17:51 <@olochimaru> O_k
17:51 < aurikan> if you're going to classify mods as different from commercial games, then when the idea first hits a commercial game, it is evolution within the sphere of commercial games
17:52 < SargeBaldy> i'm talking about original design
17:52 < Cyb> we want venn diagrams!
17:52 < SargeBaldy> i didn't say mods don't have design just because they're not commercial games
17:53 < SargeBaldy> he
17:53 < SargeBaldy> h
17:53 < SargeBaldy> yay for venn diagrams
17:53 < aurikan> so you're saying that companies who have millions of dollars on the line take less risks with "evolutionary" mechanics than mod people who do it in their spare time for free?
17:53 < aurikan> i agree
17:53 < SargeBaldy> yes
17:53 < aurikan> but that's a pretty obvious statement
17:53 < SargeBaldy> that's what i'm saying, they don't risk as much
17:54 < SargeBaldy> and thus don't progress fast
17:54 < aurikan> and i'd argue that it really has always been that way
17:54 < aurikan> it isn't a new trend
17:54 < Cyb> yes that's where the millions of dollars on the line thing comes into play
17:54 < SargeBaldy> i don't think doom was a more risky idea
17:54 < SargeBaldy> er
17:54 < SargeBaldy> -don't
17:54 < aurikan> doom has very little investor money behind it
17:54 < aurikan> had
17:54 < SargeBaldy> that's the point, newer games have to be sure to make money
17:54 < aurikan> it was practically 5 guys working out of a garage
17:55 < aurikan> so, essentially, it doesn't qualify for the "millions of dollars on the line" requirement
17:55 < Cyb> heh
17:55 < Cyb> of course they have to be sure to make money
17:55 <@xooz98> do you think that's why it was so much better (or more interesting...or more revolutionary...or more 'evolutionary') than id's later games?
17:55 < Cyb> otherwise you go the way of romero's ion storm
17:56 < SargeBaldy> i think ion storm was on the right track
17:56 < SargeBaldy> hit or miss
17:56 < aurikan> you mean miss or miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> they had two hits and one miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> deus ex was a miss?
17:56 < aurikan> hits, where?
17:56 < SargeBaldy> anachronox was a miss?
17:56 < aurikan> that wasn't romero's ion storm
17:56 < aurikan> and i think anachronox was a miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> ion storm was about designing regardless of risk
17:56 < aurikan> and where are they now?
17:57 < aurikan> riiiight
17:57 < Cyb> anox was a sleeper at best
17:57 < SargeBaldy> they're making deus ex2
17:57 < Cyb> heh romero isn't
17:57 < SargeBaldy> no, of course not heh
17:57 < SargeBaldy> he had a miss, he's doing other things now
17:57 < aurikan> one strike you're out isn't good for the games industry
17:58 < aurikan> anyway
17:58 < aurikan> we've established that you
17:58 < aurikan> are restating the obvious
17:58 < aurikan> in complicated ways
17:58 < aurikan> anything else you want to add?
17:58 < SargeBaldy> uh
17:59 < idioglossia> eloquently put
17:59 < SargeBaldy> if i was restating the obvious how come you've been disagreeing with me for the last half hour
17:59 < idioglossia> "uhhh"
17:59 < SargeBaldy> i said 'uh'
17:59 < SargeBaldy> quote me properly next time
17:59 < aurikan> because you make broad statements that seem to have large and far-reaching implications
17:59 < idioglossia> poetic license granted when dealing with grunts
17:59 < aurikan> upon questioning your premise and definitions, we discover that you're saying people with a ton invested don't like as many risks
18:00 < aurikan> thank you sherlock
18:00 < aurikan> we'll look you up next time we need a mystery dispelled
18:00 < SargeBaldy> i'm saying without risk you don't get very original design
18:00 < idioglossia> this is like a bastardized kuro5hin argument
18:00 < aurikan> withOUT risk you don't get very original design?
18:01 < SargeBaldy> yes
18:01 < aurikan> doom was low risk, it seems rather original
18:01 < SargeBaldy> how was it low risk
18:01 < aurikan> if it flopped, only a little amount of money was lost
18:01 < anarkavre> heh
18:01 < SargeBaldy> heh
18:02 < SargeBaldy> yeah but they had a lot riding on it, they weren't exactly all that wealthy
18:02 < aurikan> they really didn't have a lot riding on it
18:02 < aurikan> if it failed, they would just move on
18:02 < Cyb> no more than their previous games
18:02 < SargeBaldy> ok then by risk i mean risk of making a flop
18:02 < SargeBaldy> and not risk of losing money
18:02 < aurikan> heh
18:02 < aurikan> that's not risk
18:03 < Cyb> those go hand in hand :P
18:03 < SargeBaldy> aur just claimed they didn't
18:03 < aurikan> risk is money at stake
18:03 < SargeBaldy> in the case of doom
18:03 < aurikan> nobody cares if you make a flop if nothing is lost
18:03 < aurikan> and it sounds like you're defining risk to be proportional to originality
18:03 < SargeBaldy> i somehow doubt id would be willing to break even
18:03 < aurikan> which makes your statement a tautology
18:04 < Cyb> haha
18:04 < Cyb> frantic sounds of googling
18:04 < aurikan> haha
18:04 <@xooz98> heh
18:04 < aurikan> sorry
18:04 < SargeBaldy> if id made just as much money as it cost to make doom3
18:04 < aurikan> ;-)
18:04 < SargeBaldy> that would classify as a flop i believe
18:04 < liam> then carmack could still make payments on his 18 ferraris
18:04 < aurikan> nah
18:05 < aurikan> if it lost them money, it would be a flop
18:05 < SargeBaldy> it has to make as much as it's expected to make to not be considered a flop
18:05 < aurikan> if they broke even, it's just a waste of time
18:05 < aurikan> still, thats for the company
18:05 -!- SoM [Meciya@68.72.90.142] has joined #zdoom
18:05 <@xooz98> i don't think you can define something as a 'flop' or not by whether you make a profit or not
18:05 < SargeBaldy> if something can't meet an expectation it classifies as a flop
18:05 < aurikan> i'd be happy if my company broke even and i got well paid
18:05 -!- mode/#zdoom [+o SoM] by ChanServ
18:05 < SargeBaldy> your expectations are far lower than id's
18:06  * SoM spanks
18:06 < liam> how do you know
18:06 < aurikan> that's the worst argument ever
18:06 <@xooz98> heh
18:06 <@xooz98> well it goes without saying that people who have been successful time and time again are more expectant of success
18:06 <@xooz98> doesn't it?
18:06 < aurikan> if id breaks even on doom3 they have lost NOTHING except for time
18:06 < aurikan> that's the concept of "breaking even"
18:06 <@SoM> aurikan: oh come now, you have never heard an argument worse than THAT?
18:06 < SargeBaldy> and it's still a flop
18:07 < aurikan> SoM: ok, i'm exaggerating
18:07 < aurikan> ;-)
18:07 <@SoM> heh
18:07 < Cyb> after engine linceses I doubt they'll not break even heh
18:07 <@SoM> :)
18:07 <@xooz98> som - ur gay nd have a smal penis
18:07 < SargeBaldy> so flop in your definition, means doesn't profit
18:07 < aurikan> no
18:07 <@SoM> xooz98: my penis is NOT small!
18:07 < aurikan> flop means lose money
18:07 < aurikan> like Enter the Matrix
18:07 < Cyb> haha
18:07 < SargeBaldy> how is that different
18:07 -!- Hobo is now known as Hobo|away
18:07 < aurikan> well, when you break even you neither gain or lose money
18:07 < aurikan> when you flop, you lose money
18:07 < SargeBaldy> ok
18:08 < Cyb> flop == < $0, success = >= $0
18:08 < aurikan> as in, i paid $x to make a product, and only got paid $y for it, and ASSERT(x>y)
18:08 < SargeBaldy> well i define flop as "doesn't meet expectations"
18:08 < aurikan> that's rather nebulous
18:08 < Cyb> expectations of who
18:08 <@SoM> SargeBaldy: um, ok that's wonderful
18:08 < SargeBaldy> the people making it
18:08 < aurikan> that's still nebulous
18:08 <@SoM> then all games are flops because I expect them to do much better than they did
18:08 < SargeBaldy> and the expectations of consumers
18:09 < Cyb> which consumer
18:09 < aurikan> i mean you just defined a region the size of fucking jupiter for a target
18:09 < SargeBaldy> yes, i consider flop a vague term
18:09 < Cyb> I mean I thought the sims sucked but that wasn't a flop by any means
18:09 <@SoM> hmmmmm
18:09 <@SoM> dinner time!
18:09  * SoM spanks Cyb
18:09 < SargeBaldy> many terms are vague
18:09 < aurikan> well thanks for using vague terms intentionally
18:10 <@SoM> SargeBaldy: your mom is vague
18:10 < aurikan> it really helps in terms of clarity
18:10 < Cyb> rofl
18:10 <@SoM> LOL UR MOM!
18:10 < SargeBaldy> som: OMG :(
18:10 < Cyb> let's do this every wednesday!
18:10  * Mancubus_II spanks
18:10 < aurikan> next time i put forth a premise i'm going to use made up words
18:10 <@SoM> yay!
18:10 < SargeBaldy> heh
18:10 <@SoM> aurikan: those are the best kinds of words
18:10 < Cyb> well that's just myopozipladic
18:10 < aurikan> Som: hell sflagfa!
18:11 <@SoM> omg ghalgn manfantanrancanhanlan!
18:11 < aurikan> anyway
18:11 <@SoM> yes, time for food
18:11 <@SoM> bbl
18:12 <@Mancubus_II> mluba
18:12 < aurikan> you're still saying that when $$$ are on the line, people prefer low risk
18:12 <@Mancubus_II> executives and marketing departments usually do
18:12 < aurikan> which i agree with
18:13 < Cyb> sometimes names preceed the risk
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18:14 < Cyb> if id wanted no risk they could make a ww2 game
18:14 < Cyb> those seem to be all the rage these days
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> heh
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> yeah what the hell's up with that
18:14 < aurikan> id is going no-risk
18:14 < aurikan> they're making doom
18:14 < aurikan> if that isn't household i don't know what is
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> heh
18:14 < Cyb> tho using the name doom isn't much of a risk either
18:14 < Cyb> yah
18:15 < aurikan> maybe street fighter aplha gamma pro arcade II seventh edition with extra bouncy boobs
18:15 < Cyb> hehe
18:15 <@Mancubus_II> omg
18:15 < SargeBaldy> omg
18:15  * SargeBaldy preorders
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18:24 < lament> heh @ melfice
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18:30 -!- Topic for #zdoom: shaviro looks forward to the comment thread about [RTC-3057] hub1 release || if he actually ever releases it || http://www.reliable-net.net/~koch/random/hissynew.jpg || your mom jokes are getting REALLY old
18:30 -!- Topic set by ChanServ [services@services.oftc.net] [Wed Oct  1 13:40:55 2003]
18:30 [Users #zdoom]
18:30 [@boris      ] [ AirRaid  ] [ Carnevil     ] [ gatewatcher] [ liam      ] 
18:30 [@fraggle    ] [ anarkavre] [ Cyb          ] [ Hirogen2   ] [ pritch    ] 
18:30 [@Mancubus_II] [ aurikan  ] [ deathz0r`away] [ Hobo|away  ] [ Quast     ] 
18:30 [@olochimaru ] [ aurikan_ ] [ Destroyer    ] [ idioglossia] [ SargeBaldy] 
18:30 [@SoM        ] [ BaRaKa   ] [ Duker900     ] [ Isle       ] [ schepe    ] 
18:30 [@xooz98     ] [ BBG      ] [ Espi|bed     ] [ Jon        ] [ zarcyb    ] 
18:30 [ _5hfifty   ] [ BlackFish] [ fredrik      ] [ lament     ] 
18:30 -!- Irssi: #zdoom: Total of 34 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 28 normal]
18:30 -!- Channel #zdoom created Sat Jul 26 01:09:53 2003
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18:30 < pritch> heh
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18:30 -!- Topic for #zdoom: shaviro looks forward to the comment thread about [RTC-3057] hub1 release || if he actually ever releases it || http://www.reliable-net.net/~koch/random/hissynew.jpg || your mom jokes are getting REALLY old
18:30 [Users #zdoom]
18:30 -!- Irssi: #zdoom: Total of 34 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 28 normal]
18:30 -!- Channel #zdoom created Sat Jul 26 01:09:53 2003
18:30 -!- Irssi: Join to #zdoom was synced in 3 secs
17:13 <@Mancubus_II> wtf does that mean
17:13 <@xooz98> heh
17:13 < aurikan> Sarge: that's an unfulfillable requirement
17:13 < aurikan> period
17:13 < SargeBaldy> i mean multiplayer games aren't a consistent experience
17:13 < aurikan> there will ALWAYS be someone that you hate playing with
17:13 <@Mancubus_II> no and that's the point
17:14 <@xooz98> what if you played with someone who sprayed you with gasoline and lit matches every five seconds during the game
17:14 < aurikan> the guy who is either so damn good or so damn cheap or so damn annoying that it isn't any fun
17:14 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:14 <@Mancubus_II> and that's not the fault of the game
17:14 <@Mancubus_II> but the fault of the player
17:14 < SargeBaldy> but the game is about multiple players
17:14 < SargeBaldy> they are required by the game
17:15 -!- Hobo|school is now known as Hobo
17:15 <@Mancubus_II> but it is not the fault of the game if you don't have fun with the guy you're playing with
17:15 < aurikan> you're basically saying there is no such thing as a good multi-only game
17:15 < aurikan> that exception is a straw man
17:15 < SargeBaldy> there is no consistently fun multiplayer only game
17:15 < aurikan> we'll just accept there is some lamer that makes the game no fun
17:15 < aurikan> sargebaldy: i don't know about you but i can choose who i play with
17:16 < aurikan> and that makes it consistently fun
17:16 < SargeBaldy> ok
17:16 < SargeBaldy> then for you, it is good
17:16 < SargeBaldy> or fun at least
17:16 < aurikan> so a multi-only game can be good if you have at least some people that make it fun
17:17 < SargeBaldy> but to generally say it is 'good' and thus 'good' for everyone is impossible
17:17 <@Mancubus_II> no one said that
17:17 < aurikan> now you're saying that good is absolute
17:17 < aurikan> in that case i'm going to claim that not everyone like the sp of any game
17:17 < aurikan> thus no games are good
17:17 < SargeBaldy> i'm saying that you need consistency to use the term good
17:17 < aurikan> ok, given that
17:18 < aurikan> it is impossible for any game to be good
17:18 < SargeBaldy> and can't rely on external factors
17:18 < aurikan> under your definition, all games are bad
17:18 < SargeBaldy> how so
17:19 < SargeBaldy> well
17:19 <@Mancubus_II> plain and simple, good and bad are dependent on the view of the person saying it
17:19 < SargeBaldy> yes, i suppose so
17:19 < aurikan> well, you've already claimed that because of a lack of consistency, multi-only games are bad
17:19 < pritch> silence gay boys
17:19 < aurikan> i claim that for any game with single, someone hates the single.
17:19 < aurikan> thus all games are bad
17:19 < SargeBaldy> no, thus all games are not good
17:19 < SargeBaldy> there is a difference between not good and bad
17:19 <@Mancubus_II> ...
17:19 < aurikan> quibbling
17:20 <@xooz98> games without players are good
17:20 <@xooz98> right?
17:20 < aurikan> xooz: null set exception ;-)
17:20 < Cyb> your mom is a good game
17:20 < aurikan> is it a game if it has no players?
17:20 < Cyb> the end boss is hard tho
17:20 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:20 < pritch> your mom is a good ga.. bah
17:20 <@xooz98> what defines a game then
17:20 < SargeBaldy> if there's no players it's a simulation
17:20 < Cyb> haw
17:20 <@xooz98> simulations are good games?
17:20 < pritch> gaydoom! gaydoom!
17:20 < aurikan> i mean, if no games are "good"
17:20 < aurikan> then let's refactor the scale
17:20 < aurikan> let's say all not-bad games are good
17:21 < SargeBaldy> i don't have the attention span to remember my argument at this point
17:21 < aurikan> and bad games are still bad
17:21  * pritch rings dictionary bell
17:21 < aurikan> let me summarize
17:21 < aurikan> you've said in order to be good, a game must be perfect
17:21 < aurikan> no games are perfect ergo no games are good
17:21 < SargeBaldy> i'll rethink my logic later, i lost myself about 5 minutes ago
17:21 < aurikan> this implies the classification of "good" is meaningless
17:21 <@Mancubus_II> simple point, you can not absolutely define what is good or bad. It is simply "in the eye of the beholder"
17:22 <@xooz98> well, opinions by definition, are neither wrong nor right
17:22 <@xooz98> so good and bad are by definition meaningless
17:22 < SargeBaldy> i just meant
17:22 <@Mancubus_II> xooz: exactly
17:22 < aurikan> xooz: his definition of good and bad
17:22 < SargeBaldy> that a game should be good without the need for external variables to be considered good
17:22 < pritch> this is bad right here
17:22 <@Mancubus_II> well, you can define good or bad, but not what gets classified as such
17:23 < SargeBaldy> that is the only statement i wish to make
17:23 < Cyb> opinions are like assholes
17:23 < Cyb> everyone has one and they all stink
17:23 <@Mancubus_II> lololololo
17:23 < SargeBaldy> llozozlzll
17:23 < Cyb> my dad taught me that when I was six
17:23 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:23 <@xooz98> heh
17:23 < SargeBaldy> was your dad a philosopher
17:23 < aurikan> sarge: that statement merely implies that no multi-only games can be good
17:23 < pritch> opinions are like cyb
17:23 <@Mancubus_II> what else did he teach you about assholes at that age?
17:23 <@xooz98> the goatse man must have some really heavy opinions
17:23 < pritch> sometimes right, sometimes disgusting
17:23 < Cyb> that's like the only thing he ever taught me
17:23 < SargeBaldy> aur: not necessarily, there could be a sp component
17:24 < SargeBaldy> most mp games have bots
17:24 < liam> i argue that bots are shit.  by definitino
17:24 < aurikan> multi-only implies NO SP
17:24 < SargeBaldy> those are internal factors
17:24 < liam> definition
17:24  * pritch tickles cyb
17:24 < SargeBaldy> playing bots is single player
17:24  * Cyb farts
17:24 < aurikan> yes
17:25  * pritch passes out
17:25 < aurikan> multi-player only implies you can only play multi-player.  multi-player impies more than 1 player
17:25 < Cyb> yeah are there even any games where you can't play alone
17:25 < aurikan> counterstrike
17:25 < Cyb> that's more of a mod
17:25 < aurikan> it's a game
17:25 < Cyb> I suppose
17:25 < pritch> heh a whole new argument
17:25 < liam> cs is one of the best games ever, fuck mod
17:25 < Cyb> the next version has bots tho
17:25 < liam> cyb: they removed them
17:26 < Cyb> cz I mean
17:26 < liam> as of non-beta
17:26 < liam> oic
17:26 < liam> cz is probably too much for my shitcan pc.. well see though
17:26 < Cyb> it's the hl1 engine
17:26 < aurikan> there are many games where single isn't comparable to the multi component as well
17:26 < Cyb> how can you possibly have a pc that doesn't run hl1
17:26 < liam> it's the original hl engine?
17:27 < Cyb> yes
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17:27 < liam> didnt know that
17:27 < aurikan> you could honestly consider single halo and multi halo to be different games
17:27 < liam> ok
17:27 < Cyb> yeah
17:27 < liam> maybe i mean cs2 then
17:27 < Cyb> you can tell cz is hl1 engine becuase it's so damned ugly and outdated looking
17:27 < aurikan> rofl
17:27 < aurikan> touche
17:27 < Cyb> were cs not so damned popular it would flop massivly because of that heh
17:28 < aurikan> cs is a derivative of the damn q1 engine
17:28 < aurikan> q1 was 95
17:28 < Cyb> aye
17:28 < aurikan> so it's an 8 year old engine
17:28 < Cyb> to be fair the hl1 engine is 70% new stuff tho
17:28 < aurikan> by moore's law, we should have 4x the visual quality by now
17:28 < pritch> I wonder if they exported The Office to America would anyone find it funny
17:29 < Cyb> heh does moores law apply to games
17:29 < aurikan> to some extent
17:29 < Cyb> well I dunno look at q1 and compare it to some new cutting edge game
17:29 < Cyb> ut2k3 or something...
17:29 <@xooz98> heh
17:30 < SargeBaldy> i have yet to play that, even though i could just get it right off the network
17:30 <@xooz98> i think we've slowed down. wolf3d to q1 was what, 3 years?
17:30 < SargeBaldy> 4
17:31 < SargeBaldy> i think they've mostly just slowed down with design
17:31 < liam> oh no
17:33 < Cyb> eek oh gn0
17:34 < liam> nooooo
17:34 < aurikan> game development has become longer
17:34 < aurikan> mainly because there is more content in games now
17:35 < SargeBaldy> that's because they modify the engine more
17:35 < fredrik> and yet they're not getting better
17:35 < aurikan> fredrik: well, they are
17:35 < aurikan> but in a roundabout way
17:35 < SargeBaldy> heretic and doom are more similar engine-wise than hl and quake heh
17:35 < aurikan> gamers used to be satisfied with orthogonal walls and only partial texturing
17:36 < aurikan> they used to accept that they had to type sentences in the game from time to time
17:36 < fredrik> i don't think gameplay has evolved at all over the last several years
17:36 < fredrik> only the stuff around it
17:36 < SargeBaldy> me either
17:36 < aurikan> so you don't think GTA3 is fresh and new?
17:36 < SargeBaldy> i mean among FPSes
17:36 < fredrik> i do
17:36 < fredrik> but there are exceptions to everything
17:36 < fredrik> :)
17:36 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:37 < SargeBaldy> GTA3 was a good idea
17:37 < aurikan> what about the sims?
17:37 < SargeBaldy> that too
17:37 < aurikan> that is new
17:37 < SargeBaldy> although i hate it
17:37 < aurikan> same
17:37 < SargeBaldy> it is original
17:37 < aurikan> but its still a new idea that caught on something massive
17:37 < SargeBaldy> and thus i have respect for it
17:37 < Cyb> heh
17:37 < aurikan> sports games have evolved quite a bit in the last few years
17:38 < Cyb> aye
17:38 < SargeBaldy> yeah
17:38 <@xooz98> heh
17:38 < liam> rpgs get more and more open-ended too
17:38 < aurikan> what about "3rd-person perspective" fpses for the more artistically inclined players?
17:38 < SargeBaldy> heh, i think RPGs are getting worse
17:38 < SargeBaldy> and FPSs too
17:38 < SargeBaldy> but other things are improving
17:39 <@xooz98> i don't think fpses are getting worse, only getting old
17:39 < Cyb> there's not much you can di with the fps genra without blending it with another one tho
17:39 <@xooz98> there is only so much you can do
17:39 < SargeBaldy> well yeah
17:39 < Cyb> s/di/do
17:39 <@xooz98> hey, stealing my idea there
17:39 < aurikan> well there are lots of new things in fpses
17:39 < SargeBaldy> i mean there's not enough originality to make them good
17:39 <@xooz98> that's what i hope to see in doom3 - enough originality to make a fun fps
17:39 <@xooz98> and it probably won't happen
17:40 < SargeBaldy> heh, don't expect that in doom3
17:40 < aurikan> location damage is huge now
17:40 <@xooz98> hey, id owes me something good, i bought all the quakes
17:40 < SargeBaldy> for originality you'll have better luck with deus ex 2 or something
17:40 < Cyb> sucker
17:40 <@xooz98> i have deus ex 1 but never played it
17:40 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:40 < aurikan> you should, it's good
17:40 < SargeBaldy> yes
17:40 <@xooz98> one of my favorite fps type things (albeit not a 'straight' fps) is theif
17:40 <@xooz98> thief
17:40 < Cyb> even deus ex tho
17:40 < aurikan> i mean
17:40 < Cyb> you could consider that a first person rpg
17:40 < SargeBaldy> deus ex is one of my very favorite games
17:41 < aurikan> we've already generated so many exceptions to your blanket statement that "things haven't evolved"
17:41 <@xooz98> yeah, i should play deus ex
17:41 < SargeBaldy> i like to think of it a more well-designed FPS
17:41 < SargeBaldy> and not an RPG FPS
17:41 < liam> daikatana was evolutionary!
17:41 < liam> it had superfly johnson
17:41 < aurikan> no, dk sucked
17:41 < liam> breaking the race barrier
17:41 <@xooz98> heh
17:41 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:41 <@xooz98> breaking the suck barrier olollol.
17:41 < SargeBaldy> the race barrier
17:41 < SargeBaldy> actually daikatana ranges from absolutely horrid to pretty good
17:42 < SargeBaldy> it's the most inconsistent game ever made
17:42 <@xooz98> hehe, 'first blaxploitation character in a game'. race barrier indeed
17:42 < liam> let my people go
17:42 -!- Destroyer [~q2player@ool-44c1f799.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #zdoom
17:42 < SargeBaldy> episode 4 of daikatana is the worst thing i've ever played, aside from fan made crap
17:42 < SargeBaldy> but episode 3 was actually pretty sweet
17:43 < SargeBaldy> episode 2 was pretty cool except i think they forgot to compile it with lighting
17:43 < aurikan> so i ask
17:43 < aurikan> where is this lack of evolution
17:43 < SargeBaldy> where is the evidence of evolution
17:43 < SargeBaldy> design-wise
17:43 < aurikan> everywhere you look
17:44 < liam> the last 3 pages we typed
17:44 < Cyb> rofl
17:44 < aurikan> deathmatch game modes, for example
17:44 < aurikan> it used to be DM
17:44 < SargeBaldy> obviously engines are progressing quickly
17:44 < aurikan> then it was DM, TDM
17:44 < fredrik> so gameplay mechanics might have gotten more advanced
17:44 < aurikan> DM, TDM, CTF
17:44 < fredrik> but they haven't gotten better
17:44 < SargeBaldy> well
17:44 < aurikan> now there's a billion minor modes
17:44 < SargeBaldy> QTF is pretty old
17:44 < aurikan> king of the hill
17:44 < SargeBaldy> that's 7 years old
17:44 < SargeBaldy> that's hardly a new thing
17:44 < aurikan> one-flag ctf
17:44 < liam> assault
17:44 < aurikan> assault
17:44 < SargeBaldy> and companies didn't come up with it
17:44 < SargeBaldy> modders did
17:45 < liam> counter-strike and all the other little mods
17:45 < aurikan> that isn't a big distinction
17:45 < aurikan> just beacuse the evolution doesn't come from corporations
17:45 < aurikan> doesn't make it NOT evolution
17:45 < SargeBaldy> well i don't consider mods games
17:45 <@xooz98> heh, don't forget domination
17:45 < SargeBaldy> so i wouldn't say games are evolving
17:45 < Cyb> well uh ctf was a game you played outside before it was a game mode
17:45 <@xooz98> if you're going to mention assault
17:45 < SargeBaldy> although mods certainly are
17:45 < Cyb> so I'd hardly say they 'came up with it'
17:45 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:45 < aurikan> cyb: but it is evolving GAMEPLAY
17:45 < Cyb> yes
17:46 < aurikan> i rest my case
17:46 < SargeBaldy> i'll admit mods are evolving, just not games
17:46 < Cyb> I'm saying the concept of ctf wasn't invented by mod makers tho heh
17:46 < SargeBaldy> applying it to a game was
17:46 < aurikan> that's the most patently rediculous statement i've ever seen sarge
17:46 < SargeBaldy> that's like saying the FPS wasn't original because paintball was around first
17:46 < SargeBaldy> ridiculous
17:47 < aurikan> the only difference between modders and game developers is that game developers get paid
17:47 < SargeBaldy> and that mods aren't programmed
17:48 < Cyb> what I'm not saying it's not a good idea I'm just saying they didn't invent it
17:48 < aurikan> some games aren't programmed
17:48 < Cyb> they just said 'hey it'd be cool to play this in quake'
17:48 < aurikan> they're just a content pack on an engine
17:48 < SargeBaldy> often mods use resources from a game too
17:48 < aurikan> games often use resources from elsewhere
17:49 < aurikan> usually public domain, but sometimes licensed
17:49 < aurikan> the big difference is that since mods are generally free, they can't afford to license
17:49 < aurikan> but most of them are generally games in their own right
17:49 < Cyb> there's programming involved with mode
17:49 < Cyb> mods
17:49 < aurikan> usually, yes
17:50 < aurikan> and i'm not surprised that most of the evolution, which is inherently risky, comes from people who don't have their livelihood on the line when they push out a product
17:50 < SargeBaldy> well i only mean i don't find commercial FPSes improving in design
17:50 <@olochimaru> man i forgot how good jar of flies is
17:50 < aurikan> they do though
17:50 < liam> ok
17:50 < Cyb> heh
17:50 < aurikan> they rip ideas from mods
17:50 < liam> olo
17:50 < SargeBaldy> heh
17:51 < liam> i have ein album for j00
17:51 <@olochimaru> which?
17:51 < SargeBaldy> yeah, but i mean originally improving design
17:51 < liam> kevorkian death cycle
17:51 < SargeBaldy> and not just ripping off something older
17:51 <@olochimaru> O_k
17:51 < aurikan> if you're going to classify mods as different from commercial games, then when the idea first hits a commercial game, it is evolution within the sphere of commercial games
17:52 < SargeBaldy> i'm talking about original design
17:52 < Cyb> we want venn diagrams!
17:52 < SargeBaldy> i didn't say mods don't have design just because they're not commercial games
17:53 < SargeBaldy> he
17:53 < SargeBaldy> h
17:53 < SargeBaldy> yay for venn diagrams
17:53 < aurikan> so you're saying that companies who have millions of dollars on the line take less risks with "evolutionary" mechanics than mod people who do it in their spare time for free?
17:53 < aurikan> i agree
17:53 < SargeBaldy> yes
17:53 < aurikan> but that's a pretty obvious statement
17:53 < SargeBaldy> that's what i'm saying, they don't risk as much
17:54 < SargeBaldy> and thus don't progress fast
17:54 < aurikan> and i'd argue that it really has always been that way
17:54 < aurikan> it isn't a new trend
17:54 < Cyb> yes that's where the millions of dollars on the line thing comes into play
17:54 < SargeBaldy> i don't think doom was a more risky idea
17:54 < SargeBaldy> er
17:54 < SargeBaldy> -don't
17:54 < aurikan> doom has very little investor money behind it
17:54 < aurikan> had
17:54 < SargeBaldy> that's the point, newer games have to be sure to make money
17:54 < aurikan> it was practically 5 guys working out of a garage
17:55 < aurikan> so, essentially, it doesn't qualify for the "millions of dollars on the line" requirement
17:55 < Cyb> heh
17:55 < Cyb> of course they have to be sure to make money
17:55 <@xooz98> do you think that's why it was so much better (or more interesting...or more revolutionary...or more 'evolutionary') than id's later games?
17:55 < Cyb> otherwise you go the way of romero's ion storm
17:56 < SargeBaldy> i think ion storm was on the right track
17:56 < SargeBaldy> hit or miss
17:56 < aurikan> you mean miss or miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> they had two hits and one miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> deus ex was a miss?
17:56 < aurikan> hits, where?
17:56 < SargeBaldy> anachronox was a miss?
17:56 < aurikan> that wasn't romero's ion storm
17:56 < aurikan> and i think anachronox was a miss
17:56 < SargeBaldy> ion storm was about designing regardless of risk
17:56 < aurikan> and where are they now?
17:57 < aurikan> riiiight
17:57 < Cyb> anox was a sleeper at best
17:57 < SargeBaldy> they're making deus ex2
17:57 < Cyb> heh romero isn't
17:57 < SargeBaldy> no, of course not heh
17:57 < SargeBaldy> he had a miss, he's doing other things now
17:57 < aurikan> one strike you're out isn't good for the games industry
17:58 < aurikan> anyway
17:58 < aurikan> we've established that you
17:58 < aurikan> are restating the obvious
17:58 < aurikan> in complicated ways
17:58 < aurikan> anything else you want to add?
17:58 < SargeBaldy> uh
17:59 < idioglossia> eloquently put
17:59 < SargeBaldy> if i was restating the obvious how come you've been disagreeing with me for the last half hour
17:59 < idioglossia> "uhhh"
17:59 < SargeBaldy> i said 'uh'
17:59 < SargeBaldy> quote me properly next time
17:59 < aurikan> because you make broad statements that seem to have large and far-reaching implications
17:59 < idioglossia> poetic license granted when dealing with grunts
17:59 < aurikan> upon questioning your premise and definitions, we discover that you're saying people with a ton invested don't like as many risks
18:00 < aurikan> thank you sherlock
18:00 < aurikan> we'll look you up next time we need a mystery dispelled
18:00 < SargeBaldy> i'm saying without risk you don't get very original design
18:00 < idioglossia> this is like a bastardized kuro5hin argument
18:00 < aurikan> withOUT risk you don't get very original design?
18:01 < SargeBaldy> yes
18:01 < aurikan> doom was low risk, it seems rather original
18:01 < SargeBaldy> how was it low risk
18:01 < aurikan> if it flopped, only a little amount of money was lost
18:01 < anarkavre> heh
18:01 < SargeBaldy> heh
18:02 < SargeBaldy> yeah but they had a lot riding on it, they weren't exactly all that wealthy
18:02 < aurikan> they really didn't have a lot riding on it
18:02 < aurikan> if it failed, they would just move on
18:02 < Cyb> no more than their previous games
18:02 < SargeBaldy> ok then by risk i mean risk of making a flop
18:02 < SargeBaldy> and not risk of losing money
18:02 < aurikan> heh
18:02 < aurikan> that's not risk
18:03 < Cyb> those go hand in hand :P
18:03 < SargeBaldy> aur just claimed they didn't
18:03 < aurikan> risk is money at stake
18:03 < SargeBaldy> in the case of doom
18:03 < aurikan> nobody cares if you make a flop if nothing is lost
18:03 < aurikan> and it sounds like you're defining risk to be proportional to originality
18:03 < SargeBaldy> i somehow doubt id would be willing to break even
18:03 < aurikan> which makes your statement a tautology
18:04 < Cyb> haha
18:04 < Cyb> frantic sounds of googling
18:04 < aurikan> haha
18:04 <@xooz98> heh
18:04 < aurikan> sorry
18:04 < SargeBaldy> if id made just as much money as it cost to make doom3
18:04 < aurikan> ;-)
18:04 < SargeBaldy> that would classify as a flop i believe
18:04 < liam> then carmack could still make payments on his 18 ferraris
18:04 < aurikan> nah
18:05 < aurikan> if it lost them money, it would be a flop
18:05 < SargeBaldy> it has to make as much as it's expected to make to not be considered a flop
18:05 < aurikan> if they broke even, it's just a waste of time
18:05 < aurikan> still, thats for the company
18:05 -!- SoM [Meciya@68.72.90.142] has joined #zdoom
18:05 <@xooz98> i don't think you can define something as a 'flop' or not by whether you make a profit or not
18:05 < SargeBaldy> if something can't meet an expectation it classifies as a flop
18:05 < aurikan> i'd be happy if my company broke even and i got well paid
18:05 -!- mode/#zdoom [+o SoM] by ChanServ
18:05 < SargeBaldy> your expectations are far lower than id's
18:06  * SoM spanks
18:06 < liam> how do you know
18:06 < aurikan> that's the worst argument ever
18:06 <@xooz98> heh
18:06 <@xooz98> well it goes without saying that people who have been successful time and time again are more expectant of success
18:06 <@xooz98> doesn't it?
18:06 < aurikan> if id breaks even on doom3 they have lost NOTHING except for time
18:06 < aurikan> that's the concept of "breaking even"
18:06 <@SoM> aurikan: oh come now, you have never heard an argument worse than THAT?
18:06 < SargeBaldy> and it's still a flop
18:07 < aurikan> SoM: ok, i'm exaggerating
18:07 < aurikan> ;-)
18:07 <@SoM> heh
18:07 < Cyb> after engine linceses I doubt they'll not break even heh
18:07 <@SoM> :)
18:07 <@xooz98> som - ur gay nd have a smal penis
18:07 < SargeBaldy> so flop in your definition, means doesn't profit
18:07 < aurikan> no
18:07 <@SoM> xooz98: my penis is NOT small!
18:07 < aurikan> flop means lose money
18:07 < aurikan> like Enter the Matrix
18:07 < Cyb> haha
18:07 < SargeBaldy> how is that different
18:07 -!- Hobo is now known as Hobo|away
18:07 < aurikan> well, when you break even you neither gain or lose money
18:07 < aurikan> when you flop, you lose money
18:07 < SargeBaldy> ok
18:08 < Cyb> flop == < $0, success = >= $0
18:08 < aurikan> as in, i paid $x to make a product, and only got paid $y for it, and ASSERT(x>y)
18:08 < SargeBaldy> well i define flop as "doesn't meet expectations"
18:08 < aurikan> that's rather nebulous
18:08 < Cyb> expectations of who
18:08 <@SoM> SargeBaldy: um, ok that's wonderful
18:08 < SargeBaldy> the people making it
18:08 < aurikan> that's still nebulous
18:08 <@SoM> then all games are flops because I expect them to do much better than they did
18:08 < SargeBaldy> and the expectations of consumers
18:09 < Cyb> which consumer
18:09 < aurikan> i mean you just defined a region the size of fucking jupiter for a target
18:09 < SargeBaldy> yes, i consider flop a vague term
18:09 < Cyb> I mean I thought the sims sucked but that wasn't a flop by any means
18:09 <@SoM> hmmmmm
18:09 <@SoM> dinner time!
18:09  * SoM spanks Cyb
18:09 < SargeBaldy> many terms are vague
18:09 < aurikan> well thanks for using vague terms intentionally
18:10 <@SoM> SargeBaldy: your mom is vague
18:10 < aurikan> it really helps in terms of clarity
18:10 < Cyb> rofl
18:10 <@SoM> LOL UR MOM!
18:10 < SargeBaldy> som: OMG :(
18:10 < Cyb> let's do this every wednesday!
18:10  * Mancubus_II spanks
18:10 < aurikan> next time i put forth a premise i'm going to use made up words
18:10 <@SoM> yay!
18:10 < SargeBaldy> heh
18:10 <@SoM> aurikan: those are the best kinds of words
18:10 < Cyb> well that's just myopozipladic
18:10 < aurikan> Som: hell sflagfa!
18:11 <@SoM> omg ghalgn manfantanrancanhanlan!
18:11 < aurikan> anyway
18:11 <@SoM> yes, time for food
18:11 <@SoM> bbl
18:12 <@Mancubus_II> mluba
18:12 < aurikan> you're still saying that when $$$ are on the line, people prefer low risk
18:12 <@Mancubus_II> executives and marketing departments usually do
18:12 < aurikan> which i agree with
18:13 < Cyb> sometimes names preceed the risk
18:14 -!- lament [~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #zdoom
18:14 < Cyb> if id wanted no risk they could make a ww2 game
18:14 < Cyb> those seem to be all the rage these days
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> heh
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> yeah what the hell's up with that
18:14 < aurikan> id is going no-risk
18:14 < aurikan> they're making doom
18:14 < aurikan> if that isn't household i don't know what is
18:14 <@Mancubus_II> heh
18:14 < Cyb> tho using the name doom isn't much of a risk either
18:14 < Cyb> yah
18:15 < aurikan> maybe street fighter aplha gamma pro arcade II seventh edition with extra bouncy boobs
18:15 < Cyb> hehe
18:15 <@Mancubus_II> omg
18:15 < SargeBaldy> omg
18:15  * SargeBaldy preorders
18:23  * _5hleep is back after 9h20m: sleep
18:23 -!- _5hleep is now known as _5hfifty
18:24 < lament> heh @ melfice
18:30 -!- aurikan_ [aurikan@despayre.org] has joined #zdoom
18:30 -!- Topic for #zdoom: shaviro looks forward to the comment thread about [RTC-3057] hub1 release || if he actually ever releases it || http://www.reliable-net.net/~koch/random/hissynew.jpg || your mom jokes are getting REALLY old
18:30 -!- Topic set by ChanServ [services@services.oftc.net] [Wed Oct  1 13:40:55 2003]
18:30 [Users #zdoom]
18:30 [@boris      ] [ AirRaid  ] [ Carnevil     ] [ gatewatcher] [ liam      ] 
18:30 [@fraggle    ] [ anarkavre] [ Cyb          ] [ Hirogen2   ] [ pritch    ] 
18:30 [@Mancubus_II] [ aurikan  ] [ deathz0r`away] [ Hobo|away  ] [ Quast     ] 
18:30 [@olochimaru ] [ aurikan_ ] [ Destroyer    ] [ idioglossia] [ SargeBaldy] 
18:30 [@SoM        ] [ BaRaKa   ] [ Duker900     ] [ Isle       ] [ schepe    ] 
18:30 [@xooz98     ] [ BBG      ] [ Espi|bed     ] [ Jon        ] [ zarcyb    ] 
18:30 [ _5hfifty   ] [ BlackFish] [ fredrik      ] [ lament     ] 
18:30 -!- Irssi: #zdoom: Total of 34 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 28 normal]
18:30 -!- Channel #zdoom created Sat Jul 26 01:09:53 2003
18:30 -!- aurikan [aurikan@64.135.210.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:30 -!- Irssi: Join to #zdoom was synced in 3 secs
18:30 < pritch> heh
18:31 < pritch> melfice has come out
18:31 <@olochimaru> again?
18:32 < pritch> this time to his home town
18:32 < pritch> which you'd know if you actually posted any more :P
18:32 <@olochimaru> the whole town?
18:32 <@olochimaru> actually i did know, i was just asking questions to clarify the situation for those who didn't
18:33 <@olochimaru> well it's more like i didn't bother to read the topic :P
18:33 < lament> heh
18:33 < lament> HE'S GAY
18:33 < lament> GAY GAY GAY
18:33 < lament> LOLOLOLOLOLLOL
18:33 < pritch> so are you you fag
18:33 < lament> hey
18:33 < lament> what's wrong with that
18:33 < pritch> heh
18:33 < Cyb> I hate me they homo sexuals
18:33 -!- You're now known as aurikan
18:34 < lament> actually i'm not gay, but it surprises even me sometimes
18:34 < lament> "wtf? how come i'm not gay?"
18:35 < aurikan> mostly when your mom is around i suppose?
18:36 < lament> o_O<
18:36 < lament> no, when you're around
18:37 < lament> i can't help envying you
18:37 < Cyb> awww
18:37 < lament> you just seem so happy